[Web4lib] RE: Open source support models

Tue Jul 15 15:16:34 EDT 2008

I agree completely. Especially where the cost of the license is in the
$K's per year. Total cost is never simple and even hindsight doesn't
always get it right.

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walker, David [mailto:dwalker at calstate.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 12:08 PM
> To: Peter Noerr; web4lib at webjunction.org
> Subject: RE: [Web4lib] RE: Open source support models
> 
> > It's not quite that simple.
> 
> Indeed, Peter.  But I wanted to keep the scenario simple in order to
> make the (simple) point that the cost of a license might have been the
> missing link in Catalina's question about money savings.
> 
> All things being equal -- and we know things are not always equal --
> not paying for a license can represent the cost benefits of open
> source.  There are, of course, many other factors to take into
account.
> 
> --Dave
> 
> ==================
> David Walker
> Library Web Services Manager
> California State University
> http://xerxes.calstate.edu
> ________________________________________
> From: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org
[web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org]
> On Behalf Of Peter Noerr [pnoerr at MuseGlobal.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:50 AM
> To: web4lib at webjunction.org
> Subject: RE: [Web4lib] RE: Open source support models
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> It's not quite that simple. Paying for two things does not necessarily
> cost more than paying for one - it depends on the price, the payment
> terms, and what you get for your money.
> 
> Also, there are other business models:
> 
> Subscription for software or service is one which is fairly popular in
> the commercial software (i.e. where you pay for a license) world. In
> this model the support and license are bundled into a
> monthly/quarterly/yearly fee. This can definitely spread the cost
pain.
> 
> An "initial pain" point in any model (commercial or OSS) is the
payment
> for services to get things up and running (a major component of
> Caitlin's original and revised post). This assumes you want paid for
> service and support as you have to run a service of your own and want
> some guarantee (formal SLA or just informal) of time to get help. As a
> supplier of commercial software we also make use of OSS and we often
> end
> up fixing and contributing to the code pool because we cannot afford
to
> wait for the community to fix the problem we have found.
> 
> Development services costs often occur as an up-front payment and
their
> existence is independent of the nature of the software license. In
fact
> it is easily conceivable that OSS services are more expensive as the
> full cost plus profit for the supporting company have to come from
> those
> services. Commercial software suppliers often include an amount of
> support time in the "license" fee. Even more if it is a subscription
> where support is often "free", and so are software upgrades -
> admittedly
> as long as the subscription is kept current.
> 
> There are all sorts of variants and the actual, absolute, cost can
only
> be determined by asking (and often bargaining with) the various
> suppliers of suitable systems and services. And, of course, discounts
> and special incentives make your price often very different from the
> person sitting next to you.
> 
> To really mix the models, throw hosted services in. These do not have
> the explicit costs for time or money spent on setting up machines and
> operating systems and the like, but still include the "administrative"
> time for the customer. They are much easier to get running but,
> generally, cost more. However economies of scale can make the extra
> cost
> marginal. Another model to consider...
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> Dr Peter Noerr
> CTO, MuseGlobal, Inc.
> 
> +1 415 896 6873 (office)
> +1 415 793 6547 (mobile)
> www.museglobal.com
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org [mailto:web4lib-
> > bounces at webjunction.org] On Behalf Of Walker, David
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:03 AM
> > To: web4lib at webjunction.org
> > Subject: RE: [Web4lib] RE: Open source support models
> >
> > Hi Caitlin,
> >
> >
> >
> > > If there is no clear benefit in terms
> > > of money (since instead you end up
> > > paying for support anyway, or losing
> > > that money in terms of time) what is
> > > the advantage of choosing Open Source
> > > over commercial software?
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe I can clarify a little here.
> >
> >
> >
> > With commercial software, you end-up paying for two things: (1) a
> > license just so you can use the software in the first place, and (2)
> > support.
> >
> >
> >
> > With open source software, you only need pay for the support (if you
> > choose to have support).  The software is free.
> >
> >
> >
> > So there is a significant up-front cost savings, since you don't
have
> > to buy a license.  Once you calculate, too, that you will receive
> > future enhancements and modules for the software for free, the
> savings
> > of open source over time become even more significant.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --Dave
> >
> > ==================
> > David Walker
> > Library Web Services Manager
> > California State University
> > http://xerxes.calstate.edu
> > ________________________________________
> > From: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org
> [web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org]
> > On Behalf Of Caitlin Nelson [cnelson at hawaii.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:34 PM
> > To: Thomas Dowling; web4lib at webjunction.org
> > Subject: [Web4lib] RE: Open source support models
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Sorry if my emails seem naive or unstructured - I never meant to
make
> a
> > point-by-point argument or say anything stunningly original, I was
> just
> > voicing a thought on a recent experience...  If you're still
> interested
> > here
> > are some more thoughts:
> >
> > Thomas Dowling wrote:
> > > I don't understand: are you saying there are commercial
> alternatives
> > > where the cost of software plus the cost of support is affordable
> in
> > > your situation, but free software plus Liblime support is not
> > affordable?
> >
> > Just to clarify: no, I wasn't saying that - I was just complaining
:)
> > Of
> > course everything costs money (or time, or both) in the end.  It
> might
> > make
> > a difference, though, if you have IT staff who are more familiar
with
> > one or
> > the other - our in-house IT staff does not support Linux at all.
> >
> > Marcie Pierson wrote:
> > >Perhaps what she is saying is that, larger systems often have a
> person
> > or
> > entire staff
> > >dedicated to IT/ILS, whether they use open source or not. Small
> > systems
> > usually have to
> > >have one person become the IT/ILS guru on their own, and while open
> > source
> > may have
> > >online groups that are happy to assist with troubleshooting and
> such,
> > that
> > library person still
> > >has to do a lot of self-training. Regardless of cost/no cost, on
top
> > of
> > normal library duties, a
> > >staff member working in a small library has to also become an
expert
> > in
> > some piece(s) of
> > >software without the benefit of support from another department (or
> > person).
> >
> > This is more along the lines of what I was intending to say, thanks
> > Marcie!
> >
> >
> > Essentially here's the situation: our current "ILS" is a couple of
> > wicker
> > baskets, some quarter-sheets of paper (check-out slips), and an
aging
> > Excel
> > list of inventory.  Our annual budgets is around $3500 (in a good
> > year).
> > ANY system plus support is going to cost us money - probably more
> than
> > we
> > can afford.  We have no IT person for the library, though we do have
> > someone
> > for the entire school; I am the only librarian.  What I was hoping
> was
> > that
> > an Open Source ILS would work for us, given that there was a chance
I
> > could
> > install it and get it running myself for free (in terms of just
> money).
> >
> > What I ended up figuring out was that the time investment and
> learning
> > curve
> > for installation and setup are huge obstacles to achieving this
goal.
> > Like
> > I said in my previous post: I'm decent enough with computers and I
> like
> > learning how to do new kinds of work.  But I was not familiar enough
> > with
> > command-line work, Linux environment, PERL, etc to be able to
> > troubleshoot
> > or do anything that wasn't already written in the installation
guide.
> > I
> > also got fed up with installation guides and error messages that
said
> > something like "Have your systems administrator check this" - I AM
> the
> > systems administrator in this case!
> >
> > On the plus side, the VMWare images were incredibly helpful (thanks
> > Dan)
> > both for Koha and Evergreen, and a great starting place for us.  It
> > takes
> > off the burden of having to do a complete install from scratch and I
> > can
> > jump straight in to working with the actual ILS.  And, having gone
> > through
> > the work of installing from scratch, I am now a more capable
> > administrator
> > (becoming more so by the hour, I hope).
> >
> > I thought I and my library would be a perfect combination for using
> an
> > Open
> > Source ILS, but in the end I was surprised at how unaccessible it
> > turned out
> > to be.  Maybe it was only a surprise to me (I should have read this
> > list
> > more carefully)!  But it did leave me thinking about who exactly is
> > supposed
> > to be able to use this kind of software.  Some final thoughts for
you
> > all:
> >
> > - Who is the market for Open Source ILSs like Koha or Evergreen?
> > - If there is no clear benefit in terms of money (since instead you
> end
> > up
> > paying for support anyway, or losing that money in terms of time)
> what
> > is
> > the advantage of choosing Open Source over commercial software?
> > - What solution is there for small libraries who cannot afford
> support
> > for
> > either Open Source or commerial systems?
> > - It seems like there is a fairly steep tech gap between moving from
> a
> > double-click installation process on Windows to the installation
> > process for
> > something like Koha on Linux - is there a way to overcome this or is
> it
> > something people will just have to "deal with"?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Caitlin Nelson
> > Interim Librarian
> > TransPacific Hawaii College
> > Honolulu, HI
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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> 
> 
> 
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