[Web4lib] Re: Future of libraries

Tue Jul 8 08:33:56 EDT 2008

Andrea,

First, you seem to have made the assumption I hate my job simply because I
have taken the time to offer forth a dialogue concerning our profession – an
implicit assumption. Your verbal jab concerning my job title was noted and I
only offer that given the perceptions of librarians and the major barriers I
have in directing a special library within a hospital, the further I can get
away from the term "librarian" and its perceived connotations, the more able
I am to work within teams – "help people" as you put it.

Nevertheless, these points are little more than personal attacks and do
nothing to bolster your arguments or address mine. They are a classic
illustration of a diversionary argument meant to draw attention away from
the primary case in point – a logical fallacy. Now, I'll address the points
you make and keep to the topics at hand. I would ask you to do the same in
the future in the interest of fostering a genuine intellectual discussion.
Should you want to argue some separate point, please start another thread.

You state librarians become very much a part of their library and place a
lot of themselves into their libraries. I'm assuming you are speaking of
yourself and not the entire profession. Regardless, I think this is large
part of the problem and if we cannot set our emotions aside to discuss the
library (and information) as a separate entity, then the dialogue will be
shut down. This is really a very weak argument and you essentially say "we
can't talk or criticize our libraries because they mean so much to us."
Sorry, Andrea. This one doesn't hold water.

I'm not sure what you are attempting to convey in your point concerning the
Internet and how it is unorganized and generally a disarray of information.
That's the same point I made and to follow it up – there are a lot of people
who don't care how it is arranged. They perceive it to be a replacement for
your services. Perception is everything. Now, how can we capitalize off of
this situation?

There are several points in your argument that we have changed. You state we
have become "a walking, living resource, approachable helpers." Interesting.
What were we before, Andrea? You move on to talk about remote reference,
creating new collections, holding classes and producing programs. Aside from
remote reference, couldn't we be talking about librarians in 1950? You then
"assure" me that we have changed. Oh really? Well, if you assure me, Andrea,
perhaps there is nothing left to argue! The prosecution rests?

Your point concerning a change being a change regardless – I'll give you
that point. But I'll readdress and ask: are those changes as such that the
skill set they require would also require an MLS?

You move on to write about the changes in libraries, floor plans, computers,
etc. But, you miss my argument and point. Moreover, you fail to address it.
Does it really take an MLS to set up a shelving system similar to a
bookstore? You copied a retail model that has been in implementation for
years. More than likely, some MBA thought this up and not an MLS. Please
tell me you have more solid rhetoric than this.

You then argue against my point that our field "missed the boat on the
internet." Again you don't address that argument but divert to another topic
– web development. I don't understand why it takes money to develop a web
site. Could it be because…oh I don't know…maybe because we don't have web
development skills! The cost of developing a web page is minute if you have
the skills. I built mine for nothing – not a single dime. And as far as
usability, I've seen some good library websites and some bad ones. Many of
the good ones were not developed by librarians. Some were. Moreover, as an
Informatics student working on a second graduate degree in Human-Computer
Interaction, I have some serious reservations as to your qualifications in
judging usability.

We help people? Did they teach you that in graduate school…helping people?
The Salvation Army helps people. The Peace Corps helps people. I help
people. You want to know how? I perform literature searches and research to
produce evidence for doctors to make a diagnosis. I'm able to do this
because a large portion of my graduate research was in online information
retrieval, database design and the organization of information. Did you take
a class to help you hand out books or tell stories? Do you have some special
skill in helping people we can only find inherent in librarians? How did you
develop this skill?

Your arguments have done very little to address anything I set forth other
than to divert us from the topic. In fact, after reading your diatribe, I
might be a little dumber (if that's possible).

I stand by my original points and initial post on this subject. The
prosecution rests.

-- 
C.L. Kiess, B.A., M.L.S.
Information & Knowledge Specialist
Columbus Regional Hospital
Library & Knowledge Services

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:16 PM, Andrea Berstler <
andrea.berstler at villagelibrary.org> wrote:

> Christopher - See responses below - - - Marked ************
>
>
> First, I want to delineate between the library and the librarian. They are
> two separate elements and I often hear librarians identify themselves with
> the library.  Libraries can only change if librarians change them.
> Libraries
> are the tool and librarians are the experts who use the tool - like a
> sculptor with chisel and hammer.
>
> **** The things in a library are tools - I agree, however, like any work of
> art - librarians place much of themselves in their libraries so you have to
> give them that they are rather protective of their library and feel that
> comments on their library is a comment on them personally.***************
>
> For centuries, librarians have been responsible for the acquisition,
> organization and dissemination of information. That is no longer so. The
> internet has changed that. While I might agree that libraries (and
> librarians) will continue to exist well into the future, my question is one
> of usefulness and whether they will flourish as they once did. Will they
> thrive?
>
> ******* point of argument - the Internet may acquire information and
> perhaps
> even organize it to a degree - but unless someone does some truly drastic
> work there - it will never be truly organized and disseminated. It's just
> there - take it or leave it - and let the buyer beware. **********
>
> I take issue with the claim that libraries have changed and they are
> changing. I ask: how so? Let's examine this claim. I propose the following:
>
> - Librarians have not changed and they have simply reacted with the
> changing times; that is not true change
>
> **** Librarians have changed - they are no longer the guardians of the
> archive of information, working to only catalog and store (don't mess up my
> books!), but have become a walking, living resource, approachable helpers
> who create new collections and man remote/IM/and distance reference, hold
> classes and produce programs. These changes have come because good
> librarians have recognized that good libraries are living organisms that
> grow, evolve and change. And while they may not have changed as quickly as
> you might like, as an older librarian (over 40), I can assure you that they
> have changed. And since when is changing as a reaction not true change. A
> change is a change - whether you did so proactive or reactive.  **********
>
>  -Libraries as a physical space have not changed with the exception
> of adding computer clusters and varying media to keep pace with the times
> (Did it take an MLS to make that change? How progressive!)
>
> ****Again, what time frame are you comparing - last week, last year?? The
> libraries I grew up with, the imposing, cold, 'don't you dare make a sound
> or move a book' libraries are no longer the norm.  The shelves no one could
> reach or the shelving methods no one could understand are being replaced
> with bookstore models, lower shelves or no shelves - only displays. Have
> you
> seen a card catalog?? With floor plans designed for ease of use, areas
> designed for children, teens and adults, computer terminals around every
> corner, use of roving reference - - yes Virginia, libraries have changed.
> *********************
>
> - Librarians essentially "missed the boat" with the advent of the
> Internet. We play very small roles on the Internet and IT/IS graduates
> (people who actually were progressive in their educations) snatched those
> roles (though there are a number of us working on taxonomies, intranets and
> in special libraries supporting those causes - the future)
>
> *** I have to disagree with you. (surprised?!) while some librarians are
> not
> on the cutting edge of IT (present company included) or social networking
> sites (I learn a lot from my teenage children), many libraries have the
> best, most user-friendly internet sites around. You also have to remember
> that many MANY public libraries have NO funds to develop their websites.
> NONE!! And while we applaud our special, academic, law and business
> librarian cousins and the great job they do with their resources; there
> simply is no money to develop sites, no money for internet space, no money
> for staff, no money. It is not a matter of this not being important, or of
> us not seeing the future. . . is it a matter of "do we pay our staff and
> keep the lights on or develop a cutting edge website???" Hmmmmm that's a
> hard one to decide - give me a minute.
> In addition - we are not here just for those on the cutting edge of
> technology. Too many bells and whistles will scare off those who are not
> comfortable with technology. We, as public servants, must remember that we
> serve everyone. *******************************
>
> -          The MLS is slowly becoming obsolete with cataloging being
> outsourced, reference services being filled with non-MLS graduates and
> fewer
> jobs for the MLS (to some extent, academic libraries are the exception to
> this rule)
>
> ******** Having just completed my MLS - I have found that the classes I
> took
> that taught me how databases are developed, how to index print and
> electronic works and other "old librarian stuff" - to be most helpful in
> understanding the best way to develop good searching techniques when using
> online sources.
> I also found the courses on different literature helpful not only in
> assisting patrons in person but in developing those wonderful "pathfinders"
> for in library and online use.
> Do we need to take serious look at the coursework in an MLS program?
> Absolutely, but not because librarians are some sort of antiquated
> dinosaurs, waiting around to be exterminated, but so that each vein of
> librarianship can be well addressed, so librarians can be well prepared for
> what's coming next. Personally I would like to see more business and HR
> course for public librarians. ************************
>
> -          Our OPACs and digital libraries are largely useless since we
> cannot market or sell them and, ironically, their search functionality is
> essentially a joke. (See:
>
> http://www.techsource.ala.org/blog/2006/03/how-opacs-suck-part-1-relevance-r
> ank-or-the-lack-of-it.html<http://www.techsource.ala.org/blog/2006/03/how-opacs-suck-part-1-relevance-rank-or-the-lack-of-it.html>
> )
> -          Finally, anytime this subject comes up, twenty librarians jump
> up
> and shout about how many changes they have made.
>
>        So, tell me: What exactly are all of those changes and how did the
> MLS
> support them? Because I would propose libraries aren't really that
> different
> and the changes we have made did not require some special skill or
> education
> that gives us cause for our ritualistic "self-celebration" we love so much
> in this profession. Tell me - why are we so great and what changes have we
> made? I honestly hope someone can prove me wrong.
>
> ******************** Why are you in librarianship? You sound like you hate
> your job. Oh - sorry - you are a "knowledge specialist" - not a librarian.
> :o)
>
> I think librarians are "so great" because we help - we help people who need
> help. I know this sound corny and pat - but it's true. In my library, just
> within the last 2 weeks, we have helped individuals who were working toward
> a new career by proctoring tests, we partner with local schools by
> providing
> books for English students, we found titles for a young mother who had to
> help her 4 year old daughter deal with the coming loss of a loved
> grandparent, we helped several individuals set up email accounts so they
> can
> stay in touch with family and friends across the country. To me - that's
> great! My MLS has been of help not only in knowing where to find
> information, whether the online or print resources are best, but in
> challenging me personally to consider alternative sources to help my
> patrons.
>
> We help people - it's all about the people. If you don't get a charge about
> helping someone - get out of the job. The real purpose of librarianship is
> not to "Store and disseminate information" or even to make information
> available - it's to help people. Without people, why bother?!
>
> All these "Changes" you talk about as if they are so great?! They are only
> tools and tools change, they improve, become outdated and are set aside for
> better tools or, if they are really good, they last throughout the years.
> Do
> you judge the worker by whether he has the latest and greatest hammer or by
> the workmanship of what he/she builds??
>
> I don't know if this answered any of your statements, however I, for one,
> am
> really tired of being ranted at to change by some IT/IS person who lives in
> the "ivory tower" of technology. Who considers change only in terms of
> whether or not my library offers the newest technology.
> I would challenge anyone who thinks that public librarians or libraries are
> on the verge of extinction without drastic change, that we are not living
> "where the rubber meets the road" to spend 2 or 3 days in a local, small
> library, at the help desk, in the stacks, assisting people. If, after that
> experience, you still feel that libraries are some sort of outdated
> dinosaur, then go back to your computer and feel self-vindicated. I, for
> one, have too many people to help.
> *************************************
>
>
> Andrea Berstler
> Director - Village Library of Morgantown
> 207 N Walnut St.
> PO Box 797
> Morgantown, PA 19543
>
>
>
>
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