[Web4lib] Re: Google Search Appliance and OPACs

Fri Feb 8 14:44:25 EST 2008

OK, things are getting heated and some very generalizing statements have
been made by a number of people.

The WorldCat model (and by that I mean "a centralized resource/catalog with
access to all libraries' records")  is better than nothing, which is
functionally what we have right now because of all the reasons people have
already cited, regardless of how much some would like to believe that
WorldCat.org has effectively brought access to all library items to the
masses.  It's a good first step, a good theory, but not there yet because of
the lack of ranking and the intermediary step that doesn't help our users.

The WorldCat model in general, though, is problematic for a number of
reasons.  I mean WorldCat.org, WorldCat Local, anything and everything else
that is founded upon the model of the WorldCat database.  Not all libraries
are in WorldCat.  Small, international, rural, poor, and "anti-WorldCat"
libraries are not represented there.  Until getting the data in there is
free and easy, or there is guaranteed grant funding for libraries to have
their items listed in this "global" catalog, and until WorldCat offers
better support for non-English materials and reaches out to libraries around
the world, I don't see any model founded on WorldCat's database working for
our users -- whatever we want to argue about how our users access that data.
The input is more important than the output, folks.

Sarah Houghton-Jan

P.S. Libraries do want to be on the web, Tim.  We do.  We just don't have
the knowledge or resources through which to make ourselves be there in a way
that works for our users on a local, national, and international level, in a
uniform environment that _all_ of our users can use.  This is what we are
talking about...and talking usually leads to doing, so let's keep talking

-----Original Message-----
From: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org
To: Sutherland, Michael
Cc: web4lib at webjunction.org
Sent: 2/8/2008 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Web4lib] Re: Google Search Appliance and OPACs

Some observations on WorldCat local:

The site has static pages. The site has a PageRank of 6. That's very
high,
higher than the Seattle Times. It means that Google is VERY interested
in
the University of Washington's holdings and would spider very deep if it
could. Best of all, unlike 95% of OPACs, WorldCat doesn't rely on
sessions,
so Google won't linking to a bunch of expired pages. (Many of the links
into
the LC's catalog, for example, have expired. Well, blame the users. How
stupid does someone have to be to think linking to a library would
work?)

Despite all these advantages, Google knows only 63 pages from the
University
of Washington's WorldCat pages. Why? Because OCLC has added a
robots.txtdisallowing all agents from looking at pages under /search.
Since /search is
the connective tissue between everything, they've erected a big "Go
Away!"
to the only thing that could put them truly on the web.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the problem with libraries on the
web:
They don't want to be there.

Tim

On 2/8/08, Sutherland, Michael <msutherland at montana.edu> wrote:
>
> I attended a WorldCat Local demonstration at Indiana University during
> the fall semester 2007.  It seemed, from the presentation, that the
> search retrieves local holdings of items.  I'm not plugging WorldCat,
> however, according to the press release in 2007 -
>
> "OCLC is piloting a new service that will allow libraries to combine
the
> cooperative power of OCLC member libraries worldwide with the ability
to
> customize WorldCat.org as a solution for local discovery and delivery
> services."   (http://www.oclc.org/news/releases/200659.htm) I recall
> that the University of Washington is testing it as part of the pilot
and
> has a link on the library home page (WorldCat BETA).
>
> This solution would appear better than making your catalog a bunch of
> static pages to be crawled by Google since your holdings are already
> connected to WorldCat.
>
> As far as using Google Search API, this is a good alternative for
> libraries that do not have the resources/time to program their own
> search engine for library pages.
>
> Michael
>
> -------------------------------------
> Michael Sutherland
> Web Services Librarian
> Montana State University Libraries
> P.O. Box 173320
> Bozeman, MT, USA 59717-3320
> Ph: (406) 994-6429
> msutherland at montana.edu
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org
> [mailto:web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org] On Behalf Of Walker, David
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:10 AM
> To: Tim Spalding; kgs at bluehighways.com
> Cc: web4lib at webjunction.org
> Subject: RE: [Web4lib] Re: Google Search Appliance and OPACs
>
> I'm not sure this is a particularly apt analogy, Tim.
>
> A lot of the products and services we buy come from large
corporations.
> My local Dominos pizza and local Sears outlet don't have their own
> websites.  They have national, corporate websites that do, in fact,
> serve as intermediaries to the products that are available locally.
>
> I also think we should be careful here in talking about 'libraries'
and
> 'library users' in very broad terms.  Academic and public library
users
> often have very different behaviors and goals, and I think there are
> definitely more effective ways of reaching the former than via
placement
> on Google searches.
>
>
> > Don't like the way OCLC displays your items?
> > Stuff it. Want to try something cool? Quit your
> > job because your library is no longer in control.
>
> At the Code4Lib conference later this month, I'm going to be demoing a
> system we are developing here that uses the WorldCat API, which is
part
> of OCLC's new web services.  I'd be curious to see if you still hold
> this above opinion after seeing that.
>
> --Dave
>
> -------------------
> David Walker
> Library Web Services Manager
> California State University
> http://xerxes.calstate.edu
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org on behalf of Tim Spalding
> Sent: Fri 2/8/2008 6:32 AM
> To: kgs at bluehighways.com
> Cc: web4lib at webjunction.org
> Subject: Re: [Web4lib] Re: Google Search Appliance and OPACs
>
>
>
> > Functionally, what is wrong with the WorldCat model?
>
>
> Think about it from a non-library perspective. By and large, the OCLC
> "model" isn't applied to other things we find on the web, is it? When
we
> want to find out about pizzas in our town, do we type in the name of
the
> pizza we want, get the Online Computer Pizza Cooperative website fifth
> in
> our results, click on it, type in our zip code and proceed to be told
by
> the
> OCPC whether our pizza is to be found locally, and where?
>
>
> This "intermediated" model, where someone controls access to the dark
> web,
> does happen, but when?
>
> 1. When the data changes very frequently (Orbitz)
> 2. When a single sign-on significantly reduces complexity (Orbitz)
> 3. When privacy is an issue (Match.com)
> 4. When a computer can't possible represent every permutation of what
> you
> want to see (Google Maps)
>
>
> Now, what are the drawbacks of the OCPC/OCLC approach?
>
> 1. It isn't "normal." Most of the web doesn't work this way, so it
sets
> libraries apart.
>
> 2. It requires "teaching." Users need to learn a new way of
> working-going
> through a special library website to get to information about books.
> It's
> the same pattern again. Why do libraries plan their web engagement
> around
> the idea that everything would be great if the users would learn a new
> way
> of doing something?
>
> 3. It presumes intent. What if the user isn't sure whether they want
to
> get
> the book or not? Google allows you to flip around easily between
> options.
> There's no commitment. With the OCLC model, the users need to go
through
> various steps before they see something interesting to them.
>
>
> 4. Single point of excellence. I know you told me to "ignore other
> issues,"
> but the cold fact is that OCLC hasn't shown much speed or sagacity in
> it's
> approach to the web. It's traffic is terrible-currently 4% of the
> nytimes.com. It's been failing libraries for years. It's structure,
> mission,
> profit model and even its *location* are misaligned with innovation.
Why
> is
> this going to change?
>
> 5. Single point of service. If patrons find out about your books on
some
> external service, why maintain your own system? Why maintain your own
> tech
> people? Why maintain your own identity, even?
>
>
> 6. Single point of control. Don't like the way OCLC displays your
items?
> Stuff it. Want to try something cool? Quit your job because your
library
> is
> no longer in control.
>
>
> Tim
>
> On 2/8/08, K.G. Schneider <kgs at bluehighways.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Type "Omnivore's Dilemma, Portland Public Library" into Google and
> you
> > get
> > > nothing useful. If Google knew of a page that had both the book
AND
> my
> > > public library, they would come up on top, I'm sure of it. They
> don't
> > > because my library isn't on the web. Few libraries are.
> >
> > Functionally, what is wrong with the WorldCat model? Set aside other
> > issues
> > about OCLC. Now let's assume OCLC wielded enough clout that WorldCat
> > entries
> > appeared near the top of results for any book search. At that point
> the
> > ZIP
> > code locator (or I think also IP authentication in some cases)
brings
> the
> > user to the book+library-catalog combo (type five numbers, press
> Enter).
> >
> > I'm aware that WorldCat results currently don't appear high up
enough
> to
> > matter (despite some hifalutin arguments about capturing users in
> their
> > workflow, yada yada). But what if they did? Why wouldn't that be
good
> > enough
> > to lead the user to the book in his or her library?
> >
> > I am inclined to think this is not a matter of relevance ranking or
> > convoluted mystery-meat algorithms as it is a matter of focus.
> >
> > Karen G. Schneider
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Web4lib mailing list
> > Web4lib at webjunction.org
> > http://lists.webjunction.org/web4lib/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Check out my library at
http://www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
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