[Web4lib] Federated searching-general question re sub groupings

Thu May 17 08:20:53 EDT 2007

Peter:

      Steve listed several good reasons why databases shouldn't be included
in a federated search engine. Here are a few more reasons they can't or
shouldn't be included:

1)  The database does not want to be included.  Initially Jstor asked the
FS vendors not to target Jstor because of concerns about the load it would
put on their servers. (Not the case at present.)  There was some talk that
Google didn't want to be a target because the FSE (federated search engine)
bypasses the ads that Google has on their results list.  Some very good
museum sites put "no robots" in their metadata.  I imagine they probably
won't want to be FS targets either.

2)  The database does not have an XML gateway, a Z39.50 server, and no
screeen-scraper has been written for it.  With more specialized targets
that may be the case.  Our federated search vendor takes requests for
screen-scrapers.  They are enabled dozens of targets each month, but I get
the feeling they have a list of requests they are working on.

3)  The database has some idiosyncracy that renders results that are
marginally useful.  Lexis Nexis is an example of this.  They still fail a
search if it produces more than 1,000 results.  I can't understand why they
don't cut off the search and return the first 1,000, but there you have it.
If you are doing a federated search for some less popular legal event,
including Lexis Nexis makes sense.  But if the legal event is a little too
popular, or worse the search is focused on a very popular event or topic,
no results are returned.  I'm not sure how this new release will behave
with FSEs.

     As time goes by, I imagine these problems will be worked out.
Offering a FSE is one way a college or university can make their website
the "information destination" for their students.  As students are
overwhelmed with website destinations I believe they will have their
preferred social destination, r photo destination, shopping destination,
etc, and their academic info destination.  To be a player in that sort of
world, the database producers will have to work with the FS vendors.

Katy

Kathryn K. Silberger
Automation Resources Librarian
James A. Cannavino Library
Marist College
3399 North Road
Poughkeepsie, NY  12601
Kathryn.Silberger at marist.edu
(845) 575-3000 x.2419

             Steve Cramer                                                  
             SMCRAMER                                                      
             <smcramer at uncg.ed                                          To 
             u>                        web4lib at webjunction.org             
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             web4lib-bounces at w                                             
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                                       RE: [Web4lib] Federated             
                                       searching-general question re sub   
             05/14/2007 08:54          groupings                           
             AM                                                            

Well, there could be a number of reasons why certain databases can't be
included in a federated search, or probably shouldn't be. Numeric
databases, pay-per-search databases, and databases with a small number of
concurrent users are examples.

--Steve
___________________________________________________
Steve Cramer
Librarian for Accounting, Apparel, Business, & Economics
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
smcramer at uncg.edu, 336-256-0346, AIM: stevebizlib

"Peter Noerr" <pnoerr at MuseGlobal.com>
Sent by: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org
05/10/2007 06:10 PM

To
<web4lib at webjunction.org>
cc

Subject
RE: [Web4lib] Federated searching-general question re sub groupings

One question and one observation:

Question:

Kathryn (in her ACRL presentation) and one other poster on this thread
have mentioned that certain databases "cannot be searched by federated
search" (or similar, more succinct phrasing). I am intrigued to know what
some examples of the databases are, or what the characteristics are which
make them unsearchable by a federated search engine.

Observation:
We have noticed a growing trend in both the corporate and library use of
federated search towards the use of "subject verticals". The reasons are
all over the place, but one major theme is that users want less, but
better 'quality' results. If the user is already in a subject specialized
part of the web site, then the expectation seems to be that they will get
only very relevant material. And the converse; if they are on the front
page, they will get all sorts of stuff.

Also it is easier to consider moving a specialized search box out to the
place where the users are likely to be (a course web site, or project
collaboration page, for example) thus getting them to use the library
without having to be there. (This mixes with another thread, but it does
seem to be a trend to move specialist access out to where people are
working.)

Disclaimer:
In the interests of full disclosure; MuseGlobal is a major commercial
developer and OEM vendor of search management software, which includes
federated search and results analysis components.

Peter

Dr Peter L Noerr
CTO, MuseGlobal, Inc.

+1 801 208 1880
www.museglobal.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org
> [mailto:web4lib-bounces at webjunction.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
> Silberger
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 6:10 AM
> To: web4lib at webjunction.org
> Subject: Fw: [Web4lib] Federated searching-general question
> re sub groupings
>
> Lisa:
>
>       I think you have asked some good questions.  I am at
> Marist College
> and we have been using federated search since fall of 2005.
> Our students
> have been receptive and postive about it.  We have it front
> and center on
> our home page and we have seen article usage sky rocket.
> When we set it up
> we tried to look at searching from the student's perspective,
> and that led
> us to use the terminology of the Registrar's office.  Each of
> our federated
> groupings bear the name of a major awarded by the college.
> That is the
> terminology that guides their overall academic experience and
> we have found
> that it works well for grouping databases into federated
> searches.  I agree
> with you that students don't want to have to consider lots of choices
> before searching.  They live with a fair number of web
> destinations for
> broad life activities i.e. socializing, banking, travel,
> shopping  -- I
> believe they would like the library to be a single destination.
>
>       You are quite right about the clustering.  Students have been
> conditioned by other web searching experience to using
> clusters to filter
> search results.  (They want the movie, not the book at Amazon
> - they filter
> via cluster.)  About 80% - 90%  of the time the clustering
> will create a
> very relevant subset.   Those proposed sub-grouping would
> have some general
> academic databases and they would need to use the clustering
> regardless.  I
> have found that newspapers can present a problem in certain
> situations.  If
> a technical topic has been in the news for whatever reason,
> you can get the
> first page of results with too many newspaper articles.
>
>              We gave a paper on federated searching at ACRL
> this year.  We
> put up our paper, Powerpoint and a couple Flash demos at
> http://library.marist.edu/ACRL/Foxhunt_demo.html  .  You can see the
> clustering in each of the Flashes.
>
>               Good luck.  I think you are on the right track.
>
>
> Katy
>
> Kathryn K. Silberger
> Automation Resources Librarian
> James A. Cannavino Library
> Marist College
> 3399 North Road
> Poughkeepsie, NY  12601
> Kathryn.Silberger at marist.edu
> (845) 575-3000 x.2419
>
>
>
>
>              "Pons, Lisa
>
>              (ponslm)"
>
>              <PONSLM at UCMAIL.UC
>           To
>              .EDU>
> <web4lib at webjunction.org>
>              Sent by:
>           cc
>              web4lib-bounces at w
>
>              ebjunction.org
>      Subject
>                                        [Web4lib] Federated
>
>                                        searching-general
> question re sub
>              05/09/2007 10:18          groupings
>
>              AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a general question- sorry this is so long!
>
> We're a few steps away from implementing our new federated
> search tool.
> It has been an interesting experience!
>
> I have some questions regarding how this tool is seen across your
> institutions- that is, what is the vision for it's use?
>
> For example, we have created our tool with 21 subject categories. Now,
> some of  our subject specialists want to create sub categories, and
> choose their own databases to be searched , and put a search box on
> their subject guide pages that will only search within their sub
> category.
>
> For example, on our main federated page, we have Earth and
> Environmental
> Sciences which includes 10 databases to be searched. Now, the subject
> specialist wants to create a sub-category for Geography and put the
> search box on her subject guide page. The category may or may not have
> the same databases as the main earth and environmental sciences main
> category.
>
> My question is, won't this confuse users?  Does this partially defeat
> the purpose of a "federated search" by limiting the search to a very
> slender set of resources? We are using Serials solutions
> central search,
> which has Vivisimo to cluser results- shouldn't that be enough.
>
> Isn't this kind of library 1.0 thinking- that every tool must be
> separate, and to find this, you must go there, to find that,
> you must go
> somewhere else.
>
> I need help here- if I am wrong I need to shut up about it with my
> colleagues, if I am write, I need help from all the experts out there
> explaining why it is wrong.
>
> Thanks!
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